Reporter: Jack, thanks for joining us on State of the Union this morning.
记者：杰克，欢迎在这个早上来到我们 《联邦一州》节目。
Welch: Thank you, John.
韦尔奇：谢谢，约翰。
Reporter: I want to begin with a simple question. You’re a CEO, widely respected in the business and corporate world. We’re watching our new CEO, President Obama, of the United States. And earlier this week, he had to go to the Oval Office, give five network television interviews to say, “I screwed up.” I want your early assessment. But first, let’s listen to the president.
记者：首先我想要问您一个简单的问 题。您是一名首席执行官，在商业和社 团领域很受尊重，我们先来看一下美国 的新领导人——奥巴马总统。本周早些 时候，当奥巴马总统来到美国总统办公 室，面对5个电视广播网的采访时，他说：“我把事情搞糟了。”我想要听一下 您的看法，但首先让我们来听一下他是 怎样说的。
OBAMA: I think this was a mistake. I think I screwed up. And, you know, I take responsibility for it. And we’re going to make sure we fix it so it doesn’t happen again. (End Video Clip)
奥巴马：我想那是一个错误，我把事情搞 糟了，我应该要对此负责任，我们必须要 处理好这件事情，并令其不再发生。
Reporter： Jack Welch, big personnel choices are some of big challenges every CEO faced. Why the mistake? What are we learning about him as a chief executive? And，you know, it’s tough when you have to go in and say, “I screwed up.” How is he doing?
记者：杰克?韦尔奇，一些人事方面 的任免对于首席执行官来说可能是 很大的挑战。为什么会出现那样的 错误呢？从我们的新领导人身上我 们应该学到些什么呢？您知道，走 进去并且说“我把事情搞糟了”是 件困难的事情，他是怎样做到的呢？
Welch: Well, I think going and admitting that he had some problems-candor always wins，John. So I think it was a hell of a good move.
韦尔奇：我认为，走进去并且承认 自身出现了问题是坦率的表现，而坦率 往往能臝得人们的原谅，约翰。所以我 觉得那是一次很好的行动。
Reporter: And when you watch him make decisions and then communicate them with the American people, as someone who has had to make the tough choices. Sometimes it’s hiring new workers; sometimes it’s laying off workers. When you watch this president communicate as a leader, give us an early assessment.
记者：当您看着他作出决定，然后再跟 美国人民谈论，您是一个不得不作出困 难的决定的人。有的时候是雇佣新的员工，有的时候是让员工下岗。当您作为 一个领导人看着奥巴马总统与他交谈的 时候，您会有怎样的感受呢？
Welch: I can judge him from the campaign，where he was fantastic. Monday night’s a very big deal, John. He’s got to go in there—he's been using fear for the last few days. The country doesn’t need fear. But he needed fear to rally the Congress behind this stimulus bill. He，s got to go in and balance confidence with fear. There’s no question about that. He’s got to give people a feeling that, I’ve got this thing under control; I know where it’s going; it’s going to be difficult, but I’ve got a great team here, and we can pull it off.
韦尔奇：我可以从竞选过程来判断他是 一个怎样的人，他在竞选中表现很优 秀。约翰，周一晚上发生 的事情很重大，他必须要 去那里，在最后的那几天 里他一直在利用担心。我 们的国家不需要担心，但 是他需要用担心来集合国 会去讨论那个剌激议案。 他必须要去那里，将自己 的信心与担心平衡好，这 是毫无疑问的。他必须要 让人们感觉到，事情已 经在掌控之中，我知道事情将会怎样发 展，可能会出现困难，但是我们拥有一 支很优秀的队伍，我们能够处理好。
Reporter: One of the issues he has talked quite emphatically about is that any financial institution that takes taxpayer money as part of the bailout should cap the pay to its CEO at $500,000, the administration says; you can take some stock, maybe, down the road, but the president making the case that this is taxpayer money; there should be restrictions. Again, let’s listen to President Obama.
记者：他着重强调的一件事情是，任何 用纳税人的钱作为部分紧急支援资金的 金融机构都应该将50万美元交给首席 执行官保管。政府说你可以买下一些股 票，但是总统的意思是，那是纳税人的 钱，在利用时应该有所限制。下面让我 们再来听一下奥巴马总统是怎么说的。
(Begin Video Clip)
(视频片段）
OBAMA: This is America. We don’t disparage wealth. We don’t begrudge anybody for achieving success. And we certainly believe that success should be rewarded. But what gets people upset, and rightfully so, are executives being rewarded for failure.
奧巴马：我们这里是美国，我们没有贬 低财富，不排斥取得成功的人。我们当 然相信，成功是应该得到嘉奖的，但是 使人们苦恼的正是那些失败了却得到奖 励的主管们。
(End Video Clip)
(视频结束）
Reporter: Jack Welch, I think you got a few bonuses when you were a CEO. Obviously, you weren’t taking taxpayer money at the time; your company was not. Is this a good idea? It’s obviously populist It’s easy politics. But is this a good idea for the government to be setting pay limits on CEOs, even when there’s taxpayer money involved?
记者：杰克?韦尔奇，我知道您做首席执行官的时候得到了几笔奖金，很明 显，您那时候拿的不是纳税人的钱，您 的公司也不是。那是一个好的主意吗？ 其实那只是在奉行平民主义，是 纯粹的政治。但对于政府来说， 对首席执行官的薪酬设定限制， 甚至当涉及到了纳税者的钱的时 候，这是否是一个不错的主意 呢？
Welch: Look, obviously, you’d like it not to be this way, John. But I think the president showed a lot of restraint, a lot of balance. He could have—the country’s mad. People are angry. And he made this thing perspective. I think, on balance, with the heat around the country, the anger everywhere—you meet a cab driver; you meet somebody in a restaurant—people are angry. They’ve all lost money, real money. And I think he walked the fine line. He threaded the needle, I'd say, in a very reasonable way.
韦尔奇：很明显，约翰，您并不 想事情朝着这个方向发展，但是 我认为总统先生向我们展示的是 很多的约束力、很多的平衡点。我们国 家的人对那已经有所不满，但是他使得 那件事情透明化了。我认为总的说来， 我们国家人们的情绪很激动，到处都充 满了愤怒，无论是出租车的司机还是你 在饭店里遇到的人，他们都很愤怒，因 为他们失去了金钱，真正的金钱。但是 我觉得他处理得很好，我想说他用一种 很合理的方法处理了这件事情。
Reporter: A lot of anxious workers might be out there watching this today. Maybe last week they were laid off; maybe, next month, they think they’ll be laid off, and they want your perspective. The national unemployment rate is 7.6 percent; $598,000, Jack, flushed out of the economy just last month; 207,000 manufacturing jobs lost in December, a million manufacturing jobs lost in the last year. It is depressing, Jack Welch. They’re hard workers. They’ve been at the companies for years, and in some cases their dad and their grandfather worked there as well. Help us understand what is happening to our economy and to people like that. What is happening? And in the context of that, nearly $1 trillion in stimulus spending—the House plan is a little different from the Senate plan. Is that package going to help those auto workers or is it a Band—Aid?
记者：很多忧虑的工人现在可能正在外 面看着我们的节目，也许上周他们刚刚 被解雇，也许下个月他们即将失去工 作，他们现在想要听听您的意见。我们 国家的失业率现在达到7.6%，杰克，上 个月我们损失了 59.8万美元，12月份 制造业的工作机会就减少了 20.7万，去 年一年，这个数字达到了 100万。杰克 ?韦尔奇，那很让人沮丧，他们都非常 努力，已经在公司里干了很多年，也许 他们的父亲或者是祖父曾经也都是在那 家公司里工作过。请帮我们分析一下， 我们现在到底面临什么样的经济形势，这会给人们带来怎样的影响，到底发生 了什么事情呢？在那样的环境下，大约 1万亿的资金被用于剌激消费，众议院 提出的计划与参议院的计划有所出入。 那些资金是用来帮助那些汽车工人的， 还是只是一个权宜之计而已？
Welch: John, let me put some perspective, if I may. I managed through three recessions, ‘74—’75，*81-* 83 and ’90-’92. If you will, we knew in February, this week in February what our sales would be in April plus or minus a couple percent. This one is different. Orders have crashed. There is no visibility. CEOs are as nervous as that good man in that plant is. They don’t know what they’re doing. So a lot of these actions could be overdone as they have no visibility as to what’s happening and they’re in a preservation mode for their companies. Certainly a lot of small companies are really in that mode where they're not getting the credit and they need to take action and get costs down for survival. That's why I am so frustrated that we’re spending all this time, every talk show today, all about stimulus. The real issue is going to come when Monday Geithner unveils the banking plan. If an economy doesn’t have credit, we don’t have a game. And we’ve got to get credit flowing. I know people are angry with the top and other things. But we have to get the— what we’re doing with the stimulus plan is we’re buying a new wardrobe for a patient whose lying in cardiac arrest. We have to take the operation which is the banks and get the blood flowing and the blood in this case is credit, John. Credit is the most important thing we deal with for that man’s job and for CEOs getting some visibility as to where they’re going.
韦尔奇：约翰，如果可以的话让我来 说一下自己的看法。我带领公司成功 地度过3次经济萧条期，1974—1975 年、1981—1983 年和 1990—1992 年这 3次。其实我们在2月份的时候就会知 道，我们在4月份的销售额会是怎样， 是会增长还是减少几个百分点。但是这 一次的不同于以往，秩序已经完全被打 破，事情没有可见性。面对此次危 机，首席执行官们和工厂的工人一样 手足无措，不知道自己在做些什么。 因为他们并不知道正在发生些什么， 所以他们采取的很多行动也许有点过 度了，或者是将要发生什么。当然， 很多小公司真的是没有得到贷款，他 们必须要采取行动，将成本降到最低 以便能够生存下去。所以我觉得我们 将所有的时间就像今天的谈话节目都 花费在谈论剌激方案上，这让我觉得 很受挫。当周一盖特纳宣布银行计划 时，真正的问题才会出现。如果经济 中不存在资金，那我们就无法来展 开这个游戏，我们必须要让资金流动起 来。我知道人们现在对上级的人和事都 很愤怒，但是我们现在正在做的有关刺 激方案的事情就是我们要让经济起死回 生。我们来打个比方，约翰，比如银行 是病人，资金是血液，我们就要给心脏 停搏的病人做手术，使血液能够流动起来。无论是对于普通人，还是对于使首 席执行官们来说，资金都是最重要的一 部分，因为这能让他们看清局势，明白 自己是在干什么。
Reporter: So let’s talk about that. That is the bailout plan for anybody outside of Washington or New York who doesn’t get the language. They have $350 billion more to spend. What can they do? Because when you go to those small towns, people think that money is not coming my way. And we’re told that in this new plan, they say more transparency. They say more of a focus on housing to help the financial institutions. They also say no requirements that banks lend the money. Be treasury secretary for a minute. What would Jack Welch do?
记者：所以让我们来讨论一下。华盛顿 和纽约以外的人并不了解这一紧急援助 计划，他们有3500多亿美元的资金， 他们能够做些什么呢？因为当你走进那 些小城镇的时候，人们并不认为他们能 够得到什么，但是这项新计划实施之 后，他们就说这个更具有透明性，他们 愿意在住房方面来帮助那些金融机构， 他们还说，银行借出钱的时候没有任何 限制。我们来假想一下您做一分钟的财 政部长，杰克?韦尔奇会做些什么呢？
Welch: Jack Welch is not good enough and we have Geithner and we have Summers there to give us the perfect answer. I think that we’ve got to take these toxic assets and foreclosures and deal with both of them. In foreclosures, there are five suggestions out there. And I’m not sure which one is best. But we have to take action on that. We’ve got to stop the house price slide. On the question of the toxic assets，I favor a guarantee or insurance plan keeping the assets on the banks books so the banks work them out. And I don’t agree with forcing lending. We’ve done that before. And we end up with some of the mess we have. I think you can’t give people money and then say make a bad loan. But on the other hand, if we take these bad assets and put a backstop, we don’t put cash in, we put a government guarantee behind it, we don’t spend zillions of dollars until they go bad and we give incentives to the bankers to work it out. So, you know, I，m not the expert. The nice thing is we have two very good people here. I think the president Monday night can talk about these two very good people who both will put their best brains together and come up with a plan. But that plan, John, is 1,000 times more important than all this stimulus discussion whether it’s 819，820, 821. That’s all politics. That’s not jobs. But that’s where I come out.
韦尔奇：杰克?韦尔奇不够优秀，所以 不能做财政部长，对于这个问题，盖特 纳和萨默斯能够给我们一个满意的答 复。我认为，我们必须要清除那些不良 资产和止赎权，必需把这两件事情处理 好。对于止赎权我有5个提议，我不确 定哪一个提议最好，但是我们必须要对 那采取行动，必须要阻止房价的下跌。 对于不良资产的问题，我倾向于能够制 定一个保险计划，把资产保存在我们的 银行存折上，那样银行就可以帮助我们 来处理。我不赞成强制贷款，我们以前 那样做过，但最终是以混乱而告终。我 想，你不能先给人们钱，然后说这是一 笔呆账。但是从另一方面来说，如果我 们清除那些不良的资产，并且对其进行 增援，我们不投入现金，而是得到政 府保证，我们不用花费上亿万的钱以至 于到最后我们要银行家来处理那些事 情。所以，您知道，我并不是这方面的专家，好的一点是，有两个很优秀的人 才来带领我们处理，我认为周一晚上的 时候，总统先生可以谈论一下有关于这 两位优秀人士的事情，因为他们齐心协 力凭借智慧，想出了一个不错的主意。 但是约翰，这项计划比那些关于刺激计 划的讨论要重要1000倍，不管是8190 亿，8200亿还是8210亿美元，那些纯 粹是政治，那不是工作，这是我从中得 出的结论。
Reporter: I think the president would like to think it’s not all politics, there are some jobs in there. But Jack, what do you say—we have about 20 seconds left—what do you say to Republicans who say we can’t afford all the deficit spending. If a bank is in a bad strait, let it fail?
记者：我想，总统先生可能会认为那并 不完全是政治，也有一定的工作在其 中。但是杰克，还有20秒，今天的节 目就要结束了，所以对于那些说我们承 担不起赤字开支的共和党人，您要对他 们说些什么呢？如果一个银行处于困境 之中，那就让其倒闭吗？
Welch: I think get the most pragmatic deal we can get. The president won the election. His party won the election. Hopefully he will play a centrist role in bringing all of us together to solve this incredible problem that in my 48 years in business I’ve never seen one as big. But he's got the tools and the support of the country. Grab it and fix this thing.
韦尔奇：我认为我们应该尽所能地去得 到那些最实用的交易。总统先生赢得了 竞选，他的党派臝得了竞选，所以希望 他能够保持中立，带领我们一起来解决 这次的重大问题，这是我从商48年来 所见过的最严重的问题。他有国家人民 的支持，他应该充分利用这些来妥善地 处理好这件事情。
Reporter: Jack Welch, we thank you for joining us on State Of The Union today.
记者：杰克韦尔奇，感谢您来参加我 们的《联邦一州》节目。
Welch: Thanks, John.
韦尔奇:谢谢，约翰。